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- TommySpeechless - 03-26-2007 03:57 AM
Ok.. I know I'm ridiculously late, and I don't know if anyone will even read this, but I thought I'd drop something anyway. Anyway I'm so late cuz I didnt even know this existed.. But to end all the supposition I was the "friend" from the original convo talking to Brian.
Just had a few responses to a couple of the things said.. All in all its a good discussion, regardless of opinions and outcomes...
Just one thing to respond to that Brian had said, post-convo-
Brian:
"however, it's interesting that there's always a white person who considers themselves "a good one" (like my friend) who wants to tap that movement of people on the shoulder and ask why they didn't invite him... and when they tell him the reason why he wasn't invited was because he couldn't let go, he doesn't want to accept that as a valid reason and instead wants to sit and argue... luckily for my friend... i'm patient and enjoy dialogue. most people i know woulda just cussed him out and moved on."
"however, it's interesting that there's always a white person who considers themselves "a good one" (like my friend)"
Do you know how racist this is? I'm actually kind of insulted.. Like you're basically saying I'm a bad person, so is my mom, so is my brother, so is my dad, my aunts, uncles, grandmother, my whole family.. I think I'm a good one? C'mon guy...
"who wants to tap that movement of people on the shoulder and ask why they didn't invite him... "
Really? No.. Didn't you catch it? I'm not part of the movement. I don't want to be tapped on the shoulder. You're just an intelligent dude, we came from around the same spot, same HS, and you sparked me to say something. I just enjoy an intelligent discussion is all, and I rarely find somebody to have em with, so I enjoyed our little exchange of ideas.. But you aint hear me when I said I feel like 'Vincent?' Specks among millions of stars and galaxies and planets, this shit is all insignificant in the end. I have no desire to join yours or anybodys movement, catch me on the sideline playing my own game til' i die.
"and when they tell him the reason why he wasn't invited was because he couldn't let go, he doesn't want to accept that as a valid reason and instead wants to sit and argue"
Let me re-iterate... I don't want in. I chopped it up with you because I like an intelligent discussion. Thats more what I felt it was, maybe you felt it was an argument, I never meant it to be. I thought you respected my viewpoint to hear it out, rather than write it off than say: "I just want in, I just want to sit and argue." Far from it.
"luckily for my friend... i'm patient and enjoy dialogue. most people i know woulda just cussed him out and moved on."
Shit dog I just chopped it up with you because I thought you were a respectful intelligent person, who would hear me out voice his opinion whatever.. And you did... For one, I'm not even gonna be getting into any kind of convos with people who are just gonna "cuss me out." If I feel somebodys not gonna hear me I won't even speak.. But I mean fuckit it is what it is...
- TommySpeechless - 03-26-2007 04:50 AM
next thing, a few resonses to "kemuinat" hope you check em out...
(recap)
FRIEND: "Class is the real fucking issue, race is just a bait-and-switch that keeps peoples minds occupied while the rich fuck everybody over."
"CLASS IS THE REAL ISSUE! RACE JUST ALLOWS IT TO GO UNNOTICED!"
kemuinat:
How many people do you know want to admit that race is a huge issue that needs to be addressed? How many politicians, senators, housewives, business men will look at racism for the cause of injustice? On the contrary homie, class is almost always thrown over racism as the "real" issue because this country, the Western world in general, runs away and/or covers up anything that has to do with race. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a majority of the people in low-income/inner city/ghetto neighborhoods are people of color, particularly Black folks. Most of the inmates in our prison system are Black males and the rate of Black females in prison is on the rise. Black women lead the pack in section 8 housing and welfare. It is not simply a class issue.
my response:
Class is never thrown over racism for one, for two look at how you addressed this! You proved me right! "How many politicians, senators, housewives, business men will look at racism for the cause of injustice?" Those are the people on the top of the class pyramid!!!! Class is the real problem! Of course they won't admit racism is the real issue (they won't admit classism is the real issue either for that matter), what they will do is THEIR BEST to see that racism and classism continues, because it keeps them (and their families i.e. the Bushes, Cheneys, and countless nameless others) in power for centuries. I'm not your enemy dude.
kemuinat: You stated that we are all human beings, and we are, but I find that that is the same argument used time and time again to dismiss racism and race issues, particularly by white America. So again, I agree, we are all human beings and we have to respect each other as such, but it would be dangerous to totally disregard the fact that we are different, like you said "Because that is what I am, an individual." We are individually different (me and you) and we are collectively different (Black folk and White folk) and no, not just skin color homie.
my response:
So what are you saying? You wanna just keep it going then? Shit, I'm a person, and when I look at the world I see people everywhere, and we are all the same to me. Thats me. You can see whatever you want to see. Of course there are MANY differences, skin color being the most readily and easily identifiable. But the differences of customs and cultures are profound as well... Of course its not so easy to just say, we're all people, now we'll all just get along! no.. please, if you've read my writing you should see my mind is no where near that simple. I don't really think people will ever stop fighting over trivial shit. But thats what it is to me, and thats what I'm gonna call it. And you can say its not trivial if it involves millions or billions of people, but then I'm just gonna say, it's millions and billions of people on some trivial shit if you ask me! And I don't have the answer, and no I can't fix it, neither can you; I'm just telling it like it is.
kemuinat: And that's where, I think one of the divides are, white folks generally see race and think skin color while Black folks see race and think skin color, physical features, more importantly, culture, tradition and history. We, Black folks, generally don't divide race and who we are as people. We have been forced to see our race for centuries and all of a sudden we're supposed say, "F-it! We're all human anyways!" I don't think anyone should get off that easy and that alternative will only lead to what is happening as I type this response: silent racism, which is just as dangerous as the KKK's hootin' and hollerin'. And hey, you we don’t necessarily have to celebrate each other’s differences, but at least acknowledge and respect them.
My resonse:
Get off that easy? Who? What do plan to do, somehow punish all white people throughout the world? What you're doing is preaching seperatism, which keeps racism going (even if you don't know it). But if that's what you want, thats how you look at the world, thats you. I just don't see it that way.
FRIEND: "I do see where people's bitterness comes from, and I understand it, and empathize with it completely. But do you see where I'm coming from?"
kemuinat: You may be able to empathize but you will never understand. You being a white man keeps you from truly understanding our plight, just because you've witnessed your friends face discrimination and just because you've experienced it yourself does not mean that you know what it means to wake up everyday for 20 years a Black man. I can empathize with your opinions and your family’s experience with the Holocaust but I will never truly understand what you and your family have been through. I know where the bitterness (of Black folks) comes from, that is a stage that I believe every Black person must go through before they can progress but I do think that there are Black folks who are sitting in one angry place and crying wolf at every offense; waiting for someone to do something and manifesting the same racist ideologies that have been crammed down their throats for centuries. I like to call them progressive ignorants., countering any progress because of festering anger, resentment and ignorance.
My response:
You think anybody gave the Jews back anything?!? All the shit that was taken, all the money, property, diamonds, things of any value?!? You Think anybody said we're sorry you're whole familes dead, AND YOU WEIGH 60 f*ckin LBS, here come get your shit back?!? No. They didnt. But they were fighters, they were resilient. Black people are too, and have been from slavery to present day. Still fighting for a place at the table. Thats what you have to do. Fight for your place at the table. Things aren't right, they aren't JUST , JUSTICE does not really exist. So you fight for your place. But honestly homie, and I could catch some heat for saying this, you don't have it that bad now. Things are fucked up, yes, and they will continue to be fucked up, one day shit is not just going to be better. But how would you like to be a young kid growing up in Iraq right now? Or Afganistan? How bout a favela in Brazil? Countless other places. The Sudan, Darfur..etc. etc. etc... You don't have it so bad here at all.. It could be better, It could be a lot better, don't get me wrong. But there are much more fucked up situations you could be in (and i know US imperialism has created a lot of those problems as well, which you could chalk right up to the white man, and the Corporatocracy, which would in essence be true.) {"Confessions of an Economic Hitman"} crazy book about that... But ... BUT.. what I'm saying is, people of all colors are greedy, currupt, jealous, power hungry, and lustful. Theres people in all of these countries, native families that profit HUGELY off of this system. Its a human problem. But you insist on seeing it all in terms of black and white, and thought thats a piece, it is bigger than that.
FRIEND: "My point is, there are good and bad people everywhere, shades in between, and everything is not because of race."
kemuinat: I love this because it's true. We are all complex and 3, 4, 5 dimensional people and to say that a group of folks are all good or all bad is ridiculous and dismissive.
What I was re-iterating in more detail above. Glad you feel me. This is the basis of everything I'm saying. So if you felt this, you feel me. I just thought of something... An analogy, can you blame modern-day Germans (especially young ones {20's-30's}) for the Holocaust? No! An essence of what I'm trying to say, its up to the young people to change the ways of dealing with each other, and the ways of looking at the world, otherwise it'll just stay how it is, or get worse.
FRIEND: "Secondly, when people speak of black unity, and being the original man, and being brothers, and the evil white man, how is that helping anybody? Is that helping the black mans plight? Is it making the white man in power feel any compassion?"
kemuinat: You bunched several very different belief systems into one. Black unity and "being brothers" has nothing to do with the "white devil". Contrary to popular belief, collective unity does not equal hate. Having cultural and racial pride is just that until folks start taking it to the next level (i.e. Nazi's). And there's no way I'm about to subdue my Black pride because Joshua next door doesn't understand. Black brotherhood and sisterhood was meant to unite us as a people after the extreme attempts by this society to divide us, not to make any white man feel compassion.
Its not about "Joshua next door not understanding," you miss my point completely. Its about the people in power (who are white, and racist, and rich, and powerful), or the average middle american white person; its for the people who are white and just like you, don't see people as I do that they are just all human beings; they see people as you do, they see race, first and foremost. So what i was saying is, when they hear you coming with your black pride, they feel threatened. (even if wrongly so.) Thats what they do. So what do they do? They group up the same way, but they don't yell white power. And its not that they're even thinking they're racist, they're just thinking they're doing the same thing. And voila we have the system, and the state we're in now. Follow me? I'm not bashing you for it, just analyzing a situation. Dig?
FRIEND: "I'm more like Vincent from "Collateral." Life has made me like this. I used to be bright-eyed. Optimistic.. Have a social-consciousness... I used to think I could change things. Now I see that it's gonna be hard enough just to get things right for me, not to mention anyone else."
kemuinat: Vincent ended up dead and gone unnoticed...I'm disheartened to see that someone so young has such little hope. I've had a hard life too homie but I still believe that life has so much potential which only needs to be reached with some effort, some struggle, some adversity and even some sacrifice. I agree to a certain extent when you mentioned that you can only worry about you. Change does start with you but it doesn't end there...I think it's a domino effect and you may not see it in your lifetime but it can and will happen. Change is inevitable. Leave the world a better place than it was when you got here, even if it's for one person, make it better. I suggest you read Kmt: House of Life by Armah and Angry Black White Boy by Adam Mansbach if you haven't already. Much respect for sharing your truth...
Ok to end it on a cool, but completely unrelated.... ...
Actually from my point of view Vincent was a trill ass dude.. And yeah he ended up dead and unnoticed, but that was his point! Didn't you get it? That was the irony of the whole film! "A man dies on the train in LA, think anybody will notice?" Unrecognized and unnoticed.... but who really is noticed? Thats how he felt. Thats how I feel. 100 years from now, will they remember you, or me? Probably not. How about 200? 300? how about 4, 5, 6? How about after a thousand years? How about 2000? How about 5000? Do ytou know how old this planet is? How about in a million years? Will there be people? Strongly doubt it.. Anyway point is, I see it like Vincent. I don't want a legacy, I don't really want to change the world.. I just like a good convo to stimulate my mind like this one.
SOOOOOOO.. I thank you for sharing your thoughts, and considering my ideas.. and i will probably check those books out, i turn down no ideas without consideration, and hunger knowledge..LOL.. let me stop playing.. been writing for a minute.. but its been cool, hope its not too late hope you guys check this out.. its like 4 in the morning.. im out!
- brianold - 05-25-2007 04:38 PM
i'm not saying you're family is bad. i'm saying there's a need that i see in some folks to assert their "goodness" before even being asked.
this very conversation i think is an example of "tapping on the shoulder". you say you're on the sideline but you're still commenting on people's movements. not to mention, like i said earlier, there is no sideline.
what you can't let go of is the illustion that there's a sideline... some place where you can be neutral. that's what being "white" means in this world. it has less to do with skin color and more to do with that state of denial.
what i was saying when i said others might have cussed you out is challenging the definition of "intellegent respectful person". basically you saw me as someone patient enough to have that convo with you. which i think given the times we live in is a lucky thing... that there are even people who are STILL patient enough to attract dialogue after all the destruction.
i think what you're not seeing in the later comments is that race and class are intertwined, ESPECIALLY in America. read some james baldwin. read your martin luther king. read your stokely charmichael. read your web dubois. they compliment eachother, always have. this argument has already been deaded by the great scholars when they were arguing with the communists about this question of race v. class.
the main reason racism is more dangerous FOR BLACK PEOPLE is because historically when people have tried to unite under class movements, racism has existed there too!
race and racism have and still do permiate even the so-called anti-class movements
!
israelis are a good example. you have a people whose country is formed based on escaping persecution by anglosaxons. yet because they are less dangerous than the arabs and muslims in the middle east, an alliance forms. and America loves israel because they are the more manageable state in the middle east. the less threatening one. at the end of the day, they look over there and can say, yeah we had our beefs but we can come together and team up when we have a common enemy for the sake of our common survival.
sound similar? sounds like the kkk and john f. kennedy to me. turn a blind eye to the injustices of a so-called sovereign entity because that so-called sovereign entity is helping do your dirty work from afar.
sounds like what has always happened in the anti-class movements. the white worker often is convinced that the loyalty to his "whiteness" (usually misidentified as his "americaness") is more important than his economic interests... that's why you have black people fighting against immigration reform in this country. it's the systematic racism and white supremacy that warps peoples minds to misidentify their own interests.
when you compare the african plight in america with the africa plight in brazil or elsewhere you're the one preaching separatism but among africans! among people who are experiencing degrees of the same problem!
you are correct that there are some core human issues that need to be addressed. but there are some racial issues that amplify these issues. and those must be addressed as well, if not before those fundamental human issues CAN be addressed by oppressed people. it's like africa... we denounce certain currupt zombie leaders. fine. but what creates a zombie? circumstance. what creates an aggressive and hostile european? circumstance. what did they do? addressed their circumstance by colonizing the world... THEN they were able to build on some human philisophical issues. But you didn't see John Locke talkin about the philosophy of the state during the plague! first things first. survive is always the first order of business. eliminating your oppressive circumstance -- be it disease or political, or economic oppression.
- TommySpeechless - 05-25-2007 09:48 PM
We're never gonna see eye to eye I can tell.
"what you can't let go of is the illustion that there's a sideline... some place where you can be neutral. that's what being "white" means in this world. it has less to do with skin color and more to do with that state of denial."
I'm not in denial at all. I love myself, my family, I wouldn't want to be anyone else. If being white is apart of that, that's me. I wouldn't want to be anyone else. Now if you're saying being white automatically puts you on one "team" therefore you can't be "neutral" I disagree completely.
All of this is about perception, constructs created by human beings. Its not about being neutral, its about being your own man. To disregard and reject human constructs is to be an individual. They may still exist to other people, but that doesn't make them correct (familiar with "The Wise King" by Kahlil Gibran?). If not read this, its only a quarter of a page, then come back to me- http://4umi.com/gibran/madman/12.htm
Race is a construct created and continually perpetrated by human beings for a variety of reasons, none of which are righteous.
Its such a complicated issue though with so many people involved, on so many different sides, and with so many different agendas, motivations, and goals, common ground it seems will never be reached.
Its all about perception, and your perception is basically (whether you admit it or not) is: no matter what happens in the world; in my life, yours, or anyone elses for that matter, you view me as the bad guy because of my skin color. Because what other people have done. What I do in my actual life means nothing, in your mind I'm the bad guy and you're the good guy.
I can live with that.
I'm not neutral, I'm an individual with my own ideas and beliefs, and they're right regardless of what anyone thinks, no matter how many people tell me I'm wrong.
Like I said I'm on the sideline, but I am not neutral. I'm an individual with my own beliefs. You say there is no sideline, and that I'm still commenting. Well, I can stand on the sideline and watch the people on the field playing and comment, correct? Thats what I'm doing. There is a sideline, and if you're not actively involved in the event you aren't in the game. And then you say, "you're in whether you like it or not, you're white." Correct? Thats because in your opinion the game on the field is white vs. black. But I reject the construct of race, and see what goes on because of it as incorrect, the perpetrators of crimes in its name, or because of it as just some of the many evil in the world (a major portion, might I mention).
Yet and still I am an individual. My skin will always be this color. Hate me for it if you want, lump me in with all your theories about evil white people, that's up to you. You're entitled to your perceptions.
I dont operate that way. And that is not the reality that I see. I live my life on a day-to-day basis and judge people individually "on the content of their character," I show respect to any and all people who show it to me, and I lead a righteous life.
Like I said though, we're never gonna see eye-to-eye. Another reason is I'm living and viewing the world strictly through my ideas and beliefs, regardless of whether they're not accepted or carried out by others. And past that, I'm letting it go. I live a righteous life, yet I'm not an activist, I just live. You are seeing the world in big numbers, countries, and continents, interaction between billions of people dating back however many years. And you're out to change things, you're an activist. So theres a fundamental difference in outlooks, beyond our differences of opinion.
I think that's been a major issue here, as a sidebar to the race/class/whatever else came up discussion. A fundamental difference in outlooks that makes hard if not impossible for us to see eye-to-eye.
Yet and still, I hear everything you've said, and I see the perspective you're coming from, even if I've disagreed on some things, I have agreed on others (didn't really mention things I agreed with ever I'm noticing). But if I started in on those, I'd be writing how much more, that's enough for now.
- brianold - 05-27-2007 12:02 AM
race is a construct.
but it has real benefits. and real consequences.
therefore it is real.
i don't view you as the bad guy because your skin is white.
we discussed this in January on the blog:
http://weblog.liberatormagazine.com/2007/01/white-privilege.html
here's another related post just for reference:
http://www.liberatormagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=313
but if your mentality and identity is in sync with an oppressive and destructive status quo then yes, I have to see you as someone that needs to be changed along with the destructive and oppressive system, because to you that's normalcy.
--
sidebar:
a perfect example of their not being a sideline is global warming. for the sake of illustration that i'm not talking about skin color, here, "whiteness" would be that which maintains the status quo of destroying the o-zone layer and contributing to global warming and destructive climate change. now if you are being a regular everyday person, what you would call being neutral... trying to be just a good person, but you are the typical status quo American, you drive, you use more electricity than most people around the world, you use more oil, eat more food, use more water, basically use more resources and consume more resources than most people on the planet. but in America that's normal. that's neutral. my point is that the claim to neutrality is a subjective co-op. anyone can claim that they "feel" they are being neutral. but if you step back and look at how you are allowed to have what you have and do what you do and who suffers in order for that to happen and for you to have that, you realize that you cannot be neutral. Howard Zinn said it nicely, "you can't be neutral on a moving train"
--
it is that mentality and identity that is in sync with this oppressive and destructive status quo that makes you "white"...
it's symbolic.
whiteness was created out of an oppressive relationship with blackness.
the historical terms of whiteness and blackness are such that whiteness is greater than blackness within the construct, because whiteness built a society that benefits from the oppression and destruction of blackness (i.e. the neo/colonization of Africa, imperialism, etc)
so if you can't let go of your "whiteness" (not skin color, but accepting and participation in the maintaining of this oppressive and destructive relationship between nations who pillage and nations who are pillaged) you are holding up the status quo and that status quo is oppressive to African peoples around the world. therefore should those African people not see you as an obstacle to their liberation?
nate doesn't think that the symbol or actual word "white" is that important. but i think that it is. that's a lesser point. at least he sees that the urgent thing for "white" people is that they realize they are either moving to change this system or they are supporting the death and destruction that buys their so-called neutrality. there is no in between. as American citizens if we do nothing, we harm thousands just by paying our taxes and going through the motions of everyday life. America's built on and maintained by exploited resources at best, stolen at worst.
what James Baldwin was great at was predicting that over time all people who come to live in a place like America and start to enjoy greater access to wealth and power will begin to "become white". not in skin color but in the fact that they too will become to see this as normalcy. they will take for granted that people have to continue to starve and die in order for them to live an American or a "modern" lifestyle. fela kuti had another name for them -- or should I say us, if we aren't actively trying to change this system as well as building alternatives -- "zombies".
- brianold - 05-30-2007 12:36 PM
Paul Robeson said:
- brianold - 06-12-2007 08:18 AM
Ousmane Sembene said:
"Even when you claim neutrality, you're making a political statement."
http://weblog.liberatormagazine.com/2007/06/ousmane-sembene-great-african-filmmaker.html
- brianold - 06-19-2007 11:23 PM
dear Brian,
Caught up on the Boards---reading Metaphorical Mullato posts. Came
across your comments in the exzchange we had a while back(below) re: the
grocrey store incident (***added to note what I wanted to comment on):
Lydia Howell wrote:
Quote:> Brian wrote:
>
> "...That's funny. Cause I too will more quickly excuse something a black
> > person does as oppose to a white person. But it's not because I ***feel
> > sorry for the black person or feel a duty to no yell at them as if
> they are a child***(1)... but i feel more respect for them. I see more
> humanity in them and can therefore more easily forgive a mistake. For
> better or for worse, I feel like when black people act like asses they
> are doing so moreso ***because of their condition, presently and
> historicall***(2)... in other words they have been negatively influenced.
> Like Carter G. Woodson argues in "The Miseducation Of The Negro"
> >
> > But when white folks are disrespectful there's the sense that it's
> just how they act. That it comes more natural... cause there doesn't
> seem to be any excuse for it. So I'm quicker to be upset..."
>
It feels like you misunderstood where I was coming from--or I didn't
express it as clearly as I thought I had.
I do NOT "excuse"(not the way I see it--more like "try to understand &
NOT just react") because of ***(1). That's NOT at all where I'm coming
from! Rather, it's becaue of ***(2). But, I'm also mixing in some sense
of everyday psychology; how do people cope with daily oppression? how do
they manage stress & anger that is so often "censored" in the
circimstances that initiated the anger to begin with?
My response is not about 'sympathy', Brian, It's about "empathy".
There's a significant differnce between the two.
I think it';s important to try to understand HOW people react to
oppression--how it impacts the day-to-day interactions. As I see it
that's part of 'doing my homework" as a white person:to try to see
beyond the surface of things--to dig deeper.
And I also think that "displaced anger" from daily racism is part of the
root-cause of the violence that's spurred the creation of the Forum.
solidarity,
Lydia
- brianold - 06-19-2007 11:24 PM
I think we agree on the emapthy point.
I'm not sure tho that its displaced anger necessarily that sparks self
destruction... Perhaps the frustration, isolation, hopelessness that comes
from not being able to see a way out... It causes us to adapt and make
ourselves okay mentally by grasping for power where-ever we can get it
from. And usually the easiest way to feel powerful is to assert physical
dominence. But its more a reaction to someone elses assertion of dominence
that makes the oppressed look for something that he/she can dominate
becasue the true enemy is often invisable or too daunting to confront.
-brian
-----
I can suer see th4e "mix" of emotions you describe
(below)--frustration,isolaton, hopelessness--all of which can sure make
a person understandably ANGRY!
Feel like I'mm spiraling into defenseiveness here but, need to make
clear that in the described 'grocery' incident I did NOT (quoting your
msg***) make any "assertion of dominance"...just happened to be ahead of
this woman in live. The funny thing is if she'd just SAID "hey! I'm
running late--can you jsut let me get my stuiff?" I
d ahve said SURE! I regularly say to someone behind me in line w/1 o2
items (& I've got moer.plus am going to write a check),"Why don't you go
head...youve got so little."
And no, (& even empathy) ain't enough to change all the bs that needs
changing--but, it's one place to start.
As you said "the true enemy is often invisible or too daunting to
confront"...I sure get that!
But, every once in a while, there's also a real ally standing near by.
solidarity,
Lydia